You’d think I’d have learned my lesson. Certain blog topics have not been kind to me–panties, politics, pygmy goats. Okay, so I’ve never had any negative feedback about pygmy goats. I have been attacked by them though.
I’ve sworn off talking about undergarments for the next five years (at least!), and I’ve shied away from talking politics ever since the election. If you were reading back then, you might remember a post or three where I spoke my mind about the candidates and what they stood for. Then I stepped over the edge of propriety and suggested that if the Republicans would have won, Election Day and Inauguration Day might not have been quite so peaceful.
And then I stopped talking about politics in the interest of getting along with everyone.
But I’m feeling a tug. A little nudge in my side, a little whisper in my ear that’s saying, “Are you afraid of losing friends? The gospel offends, you know.”
Here’s what I don’t ever want to be: a person who is such a people-pleaser that she’ll compromise her beliefs in order to gain/maintain popularity. Because you know what? That’s the very thing that’s bothering me about our President at the moment.
You’ve got to stand for something or you’ll fall for anything (and for some reason, I’m hearing a twangy country tune in my ear as I type that).
And sorry about all the bunny-trailing, but I just realized that I have a “politics” category on my sidebar. Apparently, I’ve blogged about politics 14 times in the past 3+ years. And yes, my last post was January 21. Feel free to browse the archives for more background on my political leanings.
I meant to get my thoughts all in a row like little duckies before I opened Pandora’s box of Politics, but that’s not going to happen. Too much going on in my head, at my desk, in my life. So, I’m just going to take the plunge, throw a few things out there, and pray that my words will be more Spirit-inspired than flesh-incited.
I saw President Obama and his family on the lawn of the White House Saturday. We were pretty far away, but Gabe’s big camera lens + photoshop magnification confirmed that it was the First Family (and their dog). We took a walking tour of DC after the National Zoo and just happened to be at the White House when they came outside.
I felt warm and fuzzy and wanted to be their best friends.
At first glance–and even second and third glances–our President seems to embody many of the values I hold dear. Stomping out prejudice, loving the orphaned and oppressed, embracing people of every tribe and tongue, learning to get along peacefully with our neighbors, loving our enemies.
But something keeps nagging me.
See, I believe the whole Bible to be true. And not only true but the inspired Word of the one true God. A God who is the same yesterday, today, and forever. A God who does not lower His eternally holy standards no matter how much we, His creation, “progress.”
Things that weren’t okay back then aren’t okay now. (And I’m not talking about Leviticus and the like–once Jesus died, we were under the new covenant.)
I’m talking about things like–it’s not okay to murder, even if you do while the person is still inside his mother’s body. And that sex outside of marriage is not okay–and that marriage is for one man and one woman, not 2 men or 2 women. And that when the God of the Bible says He created the world, that’s what He meant.
I’m talking about Jesus saying that He is the way, the truth and the life. And that no one can get to God–or heaven–except through Him. All other roads, no matter how sweet-sounding or sensible, lead to hell.
I know a lot of you cringe when you hear the word “prophecy.” Another P word! It conjures up images of hairspray-plastered weirdos declaring that the end of the world is upon us, that Obama is the anti-Christ, that Jesus is coming back on March 2, 2010.
But there sure are a lot of things happening in the world today that match right up with what Bible prophets of old said would happen when the end draws near. And we’ve been warned that peace will be a buzzword that’s actually a pre-cursor to much bloodshed and violence (But that’s a post or two in and of itself, and honestly, I don’t even know if that last sentence made sense.).
This post is already longer than licorice, and what have I even said? Maybe this first post will just ease us into a healthy, God-honoring discussion. Apparently, I do better when I enter the proverbial political pool one toe at a time, rather than cannon-balling right in.
I don’t know much, but I do know that I want to follow hard after Christ. And that a time is coming (or has already come) when we’re going to have to take a real stand. When choosing to follow Christ (and Him alone) isn’t going to be popular.
And while I’m tempted to walk around with my head in the clouds, feeding giraffes and leaving the poli-talk to the zealots, I feel a sense of responsibility.
To stand up for my God who laid down His life for me.
If you have (respectfully-phrased) questions or comments, I’d love to try to respond to some of them. I can’t abandon the Zoo Track obviously, and I did mention that this would be Dad Month (where has the month gone??), but I can intersperse political convo here and there.
Thanks for reading. Blessings on your Tuesday!
i’m not sure if anyone has said this yet, but i just wanted to address the “religon” comments.
As a Christian, I am not anti-religion, although I am definitely more consumed by the relationship that I share with Christ than following rules. You see, when Christ died, he took on the FULL WRATH of our God, and to me, well, that’s just incredible to think about. When he did this, the law of the Old Testament was wiped away. We were no longer required to follow a law, Christ FULLFILLED the law!!! (amazing!!!)
this being said, it doesn’t mean that we are now free to sin and live in sin without a second thought. As a Christian I feel conviction when I sin. Therefore i LONG to quit sinning. I know this will never happen, but our goal as Christians is to strive towards this. To seek sanctification through Christ… for him to give us the desire to want to stop sinning.
this is why many Christians say we dont have a strict set of rules that we MUST abide by. because, well, really we don’t. although i hesitate in saying that because we are most definitely called to work on ridding our lives of sin because we are to work towards being Christ-like.
i don’t know how well I’ve articulated my thoughts. considering I’ve got one eye on the computer and the other on a 1 1/2 yr, 5 yr, 9 yr, and 11 yr old!! haha
whoa. I stayed away one week and see what happened.
Firstly and most importantly:
@Marla: if you want to offend a serious non-christian, tell him/her that he’s “missing something but he’s not aware of it”. “we” are not “faulty” nor “missing” and not by any means unhappy. It’s a Christian belief that “man is born with sin”. I totally refuse this fact, the fact that God is such “bad” to create us with sin.
So, please, don’t consider me faulty. I just followed a different paht. Thansk, much appreciated.
@Tim: man you put so many arguements. Let’s go in order.
- Political views: I do understand that America is different but…we are comparing things to learn differences and what’s wrong with that? Does comparison disturb you?
When you say “people should be allowed to rise and fall by they own merits and not propped or supported” basically means “if you can’t do, good, if you can’t, just die, it’s not my business”. That means no equality and not help for the poor. But that’s a point of view.
- “being forced to rent an house”: well, I ask you to think about this, to put your shoes in this situation: you have to move to France, with no way to go back to USA. You look for a job or a house because you’re American and Christian. What would you feel about that? Do you understand that someone is discriminating you by a STATUS and not by an ACTION? You can’t change your nationality or religion, and so you can’t have a job and an house. Would you STILL say “oh, the State should not force someone to rent me an house or give me a job”?
- Climate change: I think you’re on a wrong side of the “informations”. Almost ALL global organizations, the majority of scientists agrees that we are too many, we are consuming too much and we are one of the major impacts (direct or indirect) of climate change. Just think about this: going “green” is more expensive, for any country. Since countries have an economy and they normally go for lowest cost, why ALL major countries are moving towards green energy? It’s just a hype, a trend, a new-age myth? I refuse the idea that goverments are doing this just for having research scientists to spare.
First of all the climate change is happening, and has been proven by many independent sources (by the way, I live near the Alps and glaciers are reducing, has been PROVEN and it’s actually VISIBLE by eye). We could debate on “has been caused by humans”, but even here the proofs are so many that are overwhelming.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/03/0331_050330_unenvironment.html
The earth has not “at least 10.000 years”, but its 4.5BILLIONS years. Just a little longer.
So the amount of data is MUCH MUCH less that the 1% you say:does this invalidate them? No, because we have scientific data.
But I guess that you don’t believe in Climate Change because it’s not “written in the bible”, is it? Well, let me say that frankly: you (not specifically “you Tim”) can believe ANYTHING you like, unless it does not harm others. Unfortunately the belief that “earth is a God’s present to humanity and we should use it, no climate change because God has not written it” IS causing harm to other people.
Also, Americans are BY FAR the largest USERS of Earth resources, the biggest waste producers and the ones with the biggest CO2 impact.
http://www.thestoryofstuff.com
- Religion/Relationship thing: first of all these are not in contradiction. Saying that Christianity is not a “religion” is just a grammatical false, because a religion is a set of beliefs, and Christianity IS that. So let’s first say that, and then talk about, if you like, a “special” religion, one based on relationship. I’ve been through the words you used again in the past with Gabe and I came to this conclusion which is OBVIOUS if you were looking it from the outside: if you can’t do ANYTHING to reach God, in Christian Religion, I have to assume that it’s a religion of luck. If you have been chosen, good, you’re a lucky man, if not…well..sorry for you. How can you say that, the fact that there is NO WAY you can reach God? It’s just lottery??? At least other religions relies on personal committment!
@Lisa: yours are wise words. Unfortunately there are A LOT of Christians who would not rent an house to a homosexual, or would vote a president just by the fact that he’s not against abortion.
@Steve: you’ve been very clear. And very Intelligent, in my opinion. I agree on your idea that we are “spiritual beings” regardless of religion. And I agree on the fact that 99% of the wars were caused by religions.
@Lisa again, in response to Steve: you’re saying that “the Bible was written for those people, in those years, and clearly has the rules of that era”. Then, so why you’re applying it literally now, 2.000 years later?
What was so wrong with my comment? Why didn’t it make the moderation cut?
Steve, may I respectfully submit something here? When I first started reading and studying the Old Testament, I was strongly put off by the endless and excruciatingly detailed rules for the Israelites. And then, over time, I was reminded that during that time, the full revelation of God’s word was still VERY MUCH in process. These people did not have the printed word to go on. They needed, for lack of a better way to put it, a lot of hand-holding. They were a chosen people, a people set apart, and God wanted to make good and sure that they were living in a way that caused them to be open for the most blessing. He knew that anything that turned their hearts and minds away from Him would lead to their destruction, either over the short term or the long.
The New Testament is very clear in its message that certain behaviors lead to safety, peace, joy, and blessing, and others have long-standing (and even eternal) negative implications. Remember, the apostle Paul was talking to some pretty depraved people in some of these cities. They had no idea how to locate their moral compasses, much less follow them. When a child is being raised, parents do a WHOLE lot of hand-holding, simply because their kids just don’t know any better. These were young churches, and as such, they needed a CLEAR direction to go. I truly believe this is why so many view the Bible as strict and even dictatorial.
I will not speak in much detail on the issue of homosexuality because frankly, I am not educated enough on the genetic aspect of it, nor am I nearly educated enough on its prevalence in the animal kingdom. I would ask you to keep in mind that many of the exhortations on avoiding homosexuality in the Bible were given to people who were known for being depraved in their treatment of themselves and others. They abused and misused MANY things that God intended for blessing and good. They needed some serious hand-holding. In the same way, don’t we (as parents, family members, or caretakers) do our best to keep our loved ones from harm? Sometimes it means strictly limiting their access to certain things.
I will be honest and say that I believe that sex is something that is designed and created to be enjoyed between loving, consenting partners within the covenant of marriage. I believe this for Scriptural and biological reasons. However, I do not judge homosexuals. I also believe smoking is harmful but I do not judge smokers. As Paul said in 1 Corinthians 6:12, “Everything is permissible for me — but not everything is beneficial. Everything is permissible for me — but I will not be mastered by anything.” Many of these churches, from Corinth to Ephesus to Galatia, were primarily ruled by carnal lust. Simply put, they just took things too far. And I personally can’t think of one activity done to excess that ends up turning out well for anyone.
Well, I’ve prattled on too long. I’m coming dangerously close to stepping on a soapbox. I will humbly step back. Thank you for the time you took to share your thoughts with all of us! Marla’s been so wonderfully gracious to give us this forum to do so.
I have a problem. And it’s a BIG ONE. I have a problem with church. Ok, CHURCHES. ALL OF THEM. I have a problem with my sister, who converted to LDS and thinks THEY are the “one true faith” I have a problem with Islam. And Catholicism, and …ok, you get the idea.
Some pet peeves – this “word of God” thingie – words are HUMAN INVENTIONS, NOT those of some omnipotent being. HUMANS wrote all these “sacred” words – and then subsequent humans BUTCHERED THE TRANSLATION, of course, as humans are oh so good at doing. In the beginning, MAN created GOD, and in his image created he / him (notice how GENDER-BIASED my writing has become in just a few short parapgraphs? That’s because ALL RELIGION since the advent of AGRICULTURE is paternalistic – as against how it was PRE-AGRICULTURE (largely) – MATernalistic – thanks to humans having not a CLUE how life really happened – the MAN was irrelevant – only the FEMALE gave birth. And so, women remain, at this pathetically late date in human history, largely CHATTEL around the planet. SICK SICK – and religion and politics are almost TOTALLY responsible.
So WHY in the world would Man create a god? or gods? It’s so simple, it’s almost absurd – stating the obvious. Humans are genetically programmed to “fill in the blanks” – ie. if they don’t know the answer, the INVENT ONE to fill the void. Religion did a MASTERFUL job of that, and over the past several thousand years, also served as a means to control human lives POLITICALLY and ECONOMICALLY as well – cool! a Three-fer!! hehe
Evolution – the DREADED E-word – I am FLABBERGHASTED when I ask a “Christian” if they believe they are a primate and they INSTANTLY say no, they are NOT a primate. Huh? What PLANET are they living on? Is this a MELTDOWN of our educational system? HOW IN THE WORLD can we have multi-million dollar MUSEUMS that spew garbage about humans living alongside dinosaurs, just to CRAM the bible’s 6,000 year absurdity into a belief system? Sheesh – we really have NOT advanced as a species much in 8,000 years at all, have we?
Tolerance – boy, do religions hate (and I mean HATE HATE) this T word – it’s the old high school CLIQUE all over again – IGOG – In Group Out Group – if you aren’t with us, then you must be BAD, EVIL, ROTTEN, DEVILISH or whatever. morons. primitive thinking. very very sad. hazard of media, and video games, and NOBODY READING ANYTHING ANYMORE – which leads to NOBODY THINKING CRITICALLY anymore either.
Homosexuality – largely the same moronic and TOTAL LACK OF THINKING and OBSERVATION inherent in the Evolution discussion above. All you have to do is VIEW THE ANIMAL KINGDOM to see how widespread and COMMON homosexual behavior is. It’s normal. It’s natural. It is HARDLY an aberration. It is CERTAINLY NOT a choice. Or a sin. HOW LONG HAVE WE KNOWN THIS? amazing – billions of morons, planet-wide who have NO CLUE the reality that is the GENETICS of homosexuality. And so we heap tremendous abuse, and mistrust, and neglect and crazy behavior on them. And RELIGION is largely to blame. Religious leadership could turn this round in a WEEK if they chose to. But NO!!! God doesn’t LIKE that pesky behavior, right? It’s in the bible that it’s BAAAAAD stuff. (makes me puke) – and I’m STRAIGHT! I shudder to think what I’d be doing if I were born gay…
Anyway – I do NOT expect this post to last, but I had fun writing it – I’m 55 yrs old – born a presbyterian, and then “got religion” (or maybe LOST it is a better way to put it) just like MANY GREAT AMERICANS did – Thomas Paine, Mark Twain, George Carlin, Bill Maher – I’m a huge fan of them all, and I’ll go to my grave that way. Like it or not, I AM a spiritual being – just not what most humans would recognize as such – I BELIEVE in infinite intelligence and what I refer to as the “law of conservation of spirit.” But I don’t expect other humans to have a clue in hell (which I don’t believe in either) to understand my beliefs – at least not many.
Note: my site isn’t up just yet – should be controversial, don’t you think?
@Marla: thanks for your kind words. Your husband trained me well on these discussions
@Marla,Tim,Lisa: there is so much “meat on the grill”, as we say in Italy, and it’s late. I will answer you tomorrow or…next week, when I’ll be back from holiday. Especially to you, Tim, about the Climate Change. You made very bold sentences and I’m very towards “saving the planet”. You challenged me to prove that you, in this case, are wrong. Because these are scientific facts, not religion.
Night!
Andrea, if someone claims to be a Christian but does not love all people equally, then they are deceiving themselves. Christ did not come to condemn but to save. Remember, even the most vile serial killer will go to the kingdom of heaven if he believes, even in his last moments, that the Cross is the only way. God loves ALL equally, and if we claim to be children of God, then so should we. If I love only other Christians, what benefit is that to me? Jesus said so Himself:
32″If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ do that. 34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ lend to ‘sinners,’ expecting to be repaid in full. 35But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. (Luke 6:32-35)
I am not a Christian because of what I will get back. I am a Christian because the God of all creation has made it abundantly clear to me, in many ways and over much time, that I am worth it to him. I can’t explain it, can’t define it, and certainly can’t understand it. But His presence in my life has been unmistakable.
It’s simply not in our human nature to give and love without thought of how we will benefit or be rewarded. The fact that I can now love another, believer or not, is not of my own capacity, but it is my honor and privilege. Human beings are simply not naturally inclined to do so. Something greater must be at work for it to occur.
I am a Christian because I recognize that the universe in its entirety was perfectly and precisely created to sustain my little life at this very point in time. Nothing that happens is an accident. I say this not only by faith, but also by the tiniest bit of sight I possess. God’s fingerprint on my life is indelible and more and more apparent as time goes on.
I will never, and I mean NEVER, force my beliefs on anyone, and if I ever do, I hope I will be swiftly and sharply rebuked for it. I would dishonor another if I tried to cram my beliefs down her throat. That is never my intention. But Andrea, since you graciously and open-mindedly encouraged me to continue, I freely share what I can with as much humility as I can muster. I love you because of who you are, not because of what you believe or don’t believe. I love you because you share this mystery called life with me. I can’t love you intimately because I don’t know you intimately, but with my whole heart, soul, and mind, I want for you more than I want for myself, simply because I have been given so much. I have no choice but to share it because I’m so filled to the brim with blessing after blessing. If this means you never come to know Christ, I won’t wish for you one ounce less than everything I can possibly wish. And I say that not out of arrogance, but out of love. You are a gift to all who know you, and I hope you remember that. Our views may differ, but they make us no less equals in the grand scheme.
Thank you for wanting to know me better, as I want to know you better. What a gift it is to be able to dialogue back and forth.
Good stuff, Tim. Loved your last paragraph.
There are soooo many issues and ideas to discuss in this thread and so the question becomes which one or ones to address first if at all. I make this post with an apology, I don’t know if this will address the most recent points or even the most important but I hope will address some of the underlying issues.
This is a discussion of AMERICAN politics, not European or other nations. The American political history is separate and distinct from any other nation and despite the ancestory of the founders what was done politically here in the USA was separate and distinct from Europe.
The structure and design of the American society and government was based on a unique and different form of governance and philosophy than anything the world had seen in all of human history. There were some concepts that were built on from British governance and there were some concepts borrowed from Jewish and Roman history, however, the configuration and philosophy were different than any other. So, to compare the USA to Europe is foolish. WE DO NOT WANT TO BE LIKE ANYONE ELSE! The philosophy and ideas behind American governance is so radically different than any one else in the world as to be comparing pickles to cookies. The concept behind the American society and government is that the people are the source of power, that each individual has rights from God and only God can take those rights away. The concept behind the rest of world’s governments are that the government is the source of power and therefore the government can grant and take away rights and responsibilities. These are radically different views. Unfortunately, most presidents and political leaders in America over the past 50 years have taken a view in direct opposition to the American founding philosophy. The most recent example of an original founding philosophy was Ronald Reagan, however, even he was not fully committed to that philosophy. Since then every president and congress has moved us either faster or slower in the same direction and that is a direction of big government control and interference. People, governments, and organizations should be allowed to rise and fall on their own merits and not be propped up or supported by governments of any kind. Anytime a governmental institution taxes a group of individuals and gives those funds to another person or institution it is theft. There is no other name for it.
Getting into specific issues, while I like the idea of every person being able to get the health care and benefits that they want/need, government is not the way to accomplish that. Let the private industry provide this. Individuals of conscience and compassion will provide this. To force anyone to provide this is theft and slavery. While I hate the idea of someone being rejected from housing or jobs because of something they do in their “private life” having the government tell anyone that they must give their private property to another is theft. There may be good or bad reasons to reject renting to or hiring or serving an individual, but it is a choice of a private individual and only that individual can make that choice. The American government has no right to take that choice away. I may be harmed in some way because someone chooses not to hire me, but I have no right to force them to hire me. It is their money, their job, they can hire whom they choose and their choice will have consequences.
Now, I want to take a moment and address global climate change. There are two general issues to address in this bigger issue. First, is there actual climate change happening and that is up for debate. No one, and I mean NO ONE, can prove definitively that global climate change is happening that is not a part of a natural cycle of change. The minimal amount of data that is available is non-conclusive to either answer. This planet is at least 10,000 years old and at best we have 100 years of somewhat accurate data, but truthfully we only have at best 30-40 years of data accurate enough to measure the changes that are claimed. This means that at best we can measure 1% of our history somewhat accurately. Other than that all data is anecdotal. Having said all that, let’s assume, that there is some form of global climate change occurring. The next question is what is causing the change? Is the change being caused by humans or by natural forces that we have no control over? To this point there is absolutely no evidence that what humans do causes any global climate change. In fact the changes in the suns patterns, volcanic eruptions and other natural forces cause more harm than anything man has or can do. So, all that to say before we agree to willy nilly hand over all of our rights and responsibilities to some group of individuals who want to “save the planet” I want to know that the planet actually needs saving and that there is actually something that can be done. I wouldn’t by a pair of shoes based on the amount of evidence presented by global climate change experts let alone give up control of my life, family, country and property.
To this point I have made an assumption that those involved in this discussion understand that, the regulations and laws that have been passed and are being passed in recent years dictate to us everything from who we must support, what kinds of vehicles we must drive, what foods we can eat, what our houses must look like, and any number of other decisions we can make. Many of these decisions may be what most of us would choose anyway, but does not mean that that choice should be taken away.
I know this post is way tooo long. So, I will conclude with these thoughts for now. When talking about Christian and Catholic they are not the same. One is a religion, the other a relationship. Why do I make the distinction? Because it is vital to an understanding of what a religion is versus what a relationship is. Catholicism like every other religion in the world is man’s attempt to get to God. With religion, people must do something to get to God, God never comes to the person. Christianity is the complete opposite, it is God coming to people and drawing them to himself. There is no way possible for me to get to God through my own efforts. Only by God making a way and offering that way to me (all people) can I or anyone else hope to get to God. Christianity is not about rules, it is about accepting the gift of eternal life that is given by God. Any actions, attitudes, or activities that I do or do not engage in are not a result of rules and regulations promulgated by a a human organization, but rather as a result of my thankfulness to God and a desire to know God and to follow his direction for my life. As my creator he knows what is best and only God can fulfill me.
Andrea, this is totally off-topic, but can I just say how impressed I am with your ability to articulate your thoughts in a language that’s not your native tongue? Amazing.
And on-topic, I think that if you’re completely honest with yourself, you’d admit that there’s something missing in your life. You can’t put a finger on it, but it’s there.
This is not a case of Win Andrea to Our Side and Score Another Point for the Christians. Go, Team!
This is a matter of being fully convinced in our hearts that we have the One Thing that will bring you peace and fulfillment. And because we love you with the love of Christ, we want you to have it too.
But we won’t force it down your throat. Shame on us if we do. Hopefully you will see the love of Christ shining through our words and actions.
Blessings on your day!
@DiaperDiaries: the bible is taken literally mostly in america. Outside,even with Christian, it’s considered partly an historical document and partly an allegory. After all, thousand hands wrote it and in different times, and passed through 3000 years in various revisions and translations
http://www.ibsstl.org/bibles/about/15.php
Obviously in your point of view God was following this manuscript for these 3000 years, choosing with his own hand which one was the best suited….
You’re right when you criticize your constant “bible referencing” when dealing with non christian. This enrages “us” because you try to infer your rules to someone else’s life. It’s like going in Italy and trying to apply the American Laws. It won’t work. What could work is trying to adapt to the other mind schema.
Again, like Lisa did, you’re using your source to validate your source. “He called himself Son of God so he must be Son of God”. May be extremely valid for Christian, but understand that outside of this belief, it does not make any sense. Lunatic/Liar/Son logic application: world is full of people of Liar and Lunatics with a lot of followers (and I bet that you think that Muslims are following a Liar and/or a Lunatic and they are quite a lot).
But as I already said: don’t want to convert you. Just wanted to show you, in an educated way (which I think it’s hard for you to find, as you said you’re being persecuted), what are the logical errors seen from outside.
Back to politics: does EVER came into your mind the doubt, just the SLIGHEST doubt, that what you call “the truth” may not be the “real truth”? After all, other religions has their TRUTH. Each one of us has his TRUTH. So all non christian are in fail, then. For example: people in remote villages of africa, never been exposed to Christian religion, are in fail?
@Lisa: instead you should go on. Not because you want to convert me, but because you want to KNOW me, as I’m doing now. And you want to grow through exchange of opinions.
I appreciate that you don’t judge sexual orientation, but AFAIK a lot of Americans voted Bush or McCain MOSTLY because they were against these “immoral” things like gay marriage and abortion. This is a fact. I truly appreciate you don’t fit in this, but how do you explain the big remainders of voters?
Andrea, thank you.
I won’t go more into my beliefs because, as Marla has said, it’s not up to me to “convert” anyone to my way of thinking. But I will say this… being a Christian does not make sense. Hence the beauty of it, I am a Christian because Christ made His presence VERY clear to me in the darkest time of my life. He truly called me to Him. I had nothing, and I mean nothing, to do with it. This is how I know He is real. This is why I keep pursuing a relationship with Him.
And no, I would never ask someone’s sexual orientation. I love people for people. In my mind and heart, people are NOT defined by the choices they make. I’m a sinner just as much as the next person. The difference is, I’ve since learned that I am not my sins. They do not define me. My relationship with Christ is what defines me.
I will respectfully step back and let this conversation continue among those of you FAR more qualified to speak on them. But I very much appreciate this dialogue with you.
Great post and what great, respectful comments. If I may add my 2 cents.
I see this a lot, when Christians are trying to persuade non-Christians to their views, and have always felt it makes little sense. While I completely believe in the complete and inherent truth of the bible, using scripture to prove a point about God to a non believer is futile. If they believe the book is an allegory or a book of nice stories, I am pretty sure we can quote scripture until we are blue in the face and it is about as convincing as reading a comic strip. I do not doubt that God can use the power of his own words, but I think we need to understand that when we speak it, it is probably not received as truth.
That being said, Andrea, I do think that the “radical” Christian of which you speak is the only kind there truly is. For someone to call themselves a follower of Christ and call the Bible a nice allegory is inconsistent. These are usually the same people that say that Jesus was a great teacher and we should try and do some of the things he says. He called himself the Son of God. Many times. So to quote C.S. Lewis, he either is the Son of God, a lunatic or a liar. If he is either of the latter, why on earth would anyone use him as a moral compass? HE says that he is the only way and when we follow him we must make a choice to either accept or reject that claim.
On the political note, I vote the way I vote for a lot of reasons, one of which being that I would prefer to vote for someone who aligns with my belief system. That being said, I agree with one of the above commentors that no one in many recent elections has completely fit that bill (although I was a big Huckabee fan). I also think that Christians so strongly trying to insert themselves in the political process (a la James Dobson and others), has led to a MAJOR misunderstanding of what we are about. I am fairly confident if Jesus came back to earth today, he would be concerned about more than just abortion and gay marriage (although I do think he would care). So why is that only platform about which many speak. The reason Christians voted for Obama and did so with a clear conscience despite his views on those 2 issues being at odds with what we believe is that he had a strong stance on other issues I believe God cares about such as taking care of the earth he has stewarded us and helping the poor and disinfranchised. Again, I don’t agree with the HOW, but I understand why people voted the way they did.
As Christian citizens, I do believe it is our calling to vote for the person we believe will govern our country best, but if we expect an earthly appointed official to fully carry out God’s plans, I think we are not looking closely enough at the political climate when Jesus walked on Earth. Many of his followers also wanted him to “fix” the government of the time and bring peace to the land. But that wasn’t his ultimate mission (which is why Judas ends up betraying him). His ultimate mission was to save US and bring peace to US. The government and world as we know it will ONLY receive true peace when he comes back at restores all of humanity. In the meantime, we can pray for our leaders and those around us that they will know the TRUTH.
@Ashley: kudos, those are sensible ideas!
@Lisa: a short premise for you. My first gf had an abortion with the previous boyfriend. I just came after and I lived a 1.5 years relationship with the emotional issues of this girl. She was VERY damaged and I felt sorry for her. I PERFECTLY know the psychological issue of an abortion. 2 of my best female friends and one of my best male friends went through an abortion. And I was able to see the sufference. One year ago my sister got pregnant “by mistake” with a person that she does not love: I did my best to convince her to keep the baby and she did it. No, wait: I did my best to say her that she would have suffered a lot an abortion and the “best” thing would have been to keep him, but at the same time I would not have judged her for ANY decision. Not sure if was my words (don’t think so) but now Emanuele is born and he’s beautiful, but he has a mother and a father that don’t love each other.
So, don’t tell me what is an abortion, because we in the “real world” knows it much better than in the Christian “no-sex-before-marriage” world. I have (unfortunately) quite an experience.
Then comes the discussion about faith. Faith is not logic. The premise of faith is believing, trusting the existence of God (or a relationship…) and following his rules (bible) without questioning. The no-questioning part is crucial in faith, because when you start questioning, logic comes in and some things does not “match. I understand your point, but unfortunately from a non-faith person (a person who uses logic) it is SO full of logical errors.
The point is that: should I point those errors to you? Even if I do, it won’t change a bit your idea, your faith. Because you don’t question the source. So I challenge you to read this without thinking to be attacked, but to see how logic people see the incongruencies of faith. No, more exactly, “how logic people see the incongruencies of BIBLE-LITERAL faith”.
#1. “I say the true, and since I say the true, this sentence is true”. You can’t use the same entity (the bible) to certify the validity of the entity itself (the bible). You said “the bible has been inspired by God because it is written on it”. That is a logical error, something you’ll learn to avoid in 1st hour of 1st class of Philosophy and Logic courses.
This is one point where non-believers likes to make fun of you: that self-referencing that does not go anywhere.
It would be MUCH MORE sensible (albeit not proving anything) to say “the bible is true because I ‘feel’ it”. Your emotions about the bible won’t prove the validity of it, but at least it won’t be a factual error.
#2: All things (underlined: ALL) touched by an human are fallacious (because human is imperfect). The bible has been written by humans. Then it must be fallacious and imperfect.
#3: If you met me, you’re not going to discriminate me and not going to say “repent!” (and I believe that). You said you do not discriminate gay. However you said that there are biological and humanistical “errors” in a gay relationship (‘not the correct model’). Defining erroneous is judging, taking a stance: “I am right because I follow that model, you’re not”. Kimberly said that she would like to know the sexual status before renting an house. Would you? If so, you’re discriminating. Maybe you’re not hating, but still discriminating.
Or, at least, you voted (I guess…) for a party that DOES discriminate against gays.
Thanks for the time spent to argue with me
@back door: wise concept. I haven’t read that book, but I documented in the past on that concept. Founding Fathers were not Christian, at least not all of them. Just google it and face the reality. Face the eradication of Indians, face the slaves, face the wars ran by Bush, face the Cuba embargo. Those aren’t really things done on Christian principles (money, success, power, land…whatever you like, not exactly Godly attributes).
And by the way founding fathers were humans. And if you say that people writing the bible were inspired by God, I can’t hear you say that modern founding fathers were “inspired by God”.
That should break once for all the God/Politics question once for all. Keep god for yourself, and let politics follow ethics and civil rights.
What an interesting post! I felt compelled to post myself.
I am a Lutheran, raised in a Lutheran household since birth. I was raised to love an all-loving God. I was also raised with morals similar to those I was taught in my Sunday School and Confirmation classes. Such as saving sex until marriage (which I am doing) and loving others, even when their viewpoints conflict with your own.
What I’m going to say next, then, may shock you. I was also raised to be pro-choice. The best quote I can offer here actually comes from President Obama when he said at Benedictine University in 2004, “No one is pro-abortion”. As a female, I recognize all of the complex emotions, religious beliefs, and personal opinions that come into this very emotionally-packed conversation. As a female who is going into the field of clinical psychology, I have also learned of women who were raped, forced into non-consensual sex with either a partner or husband. After such a traumatic, unbelievably defeating experience, I could never imagine sitting across from a client telling her she absolutely doesn’t have the right to seek an abortion if she chose that option for herself. If placed in the same scary situation, I don’t know that I would choose abortion. It would be a very difficult decision. But I think women who do make that choice have the right to a sterile abortion that greatly reduces the risks associated with self-performed abortions. Whether or not abortion remains legal, there will be women who choose to terminate a pregnancy. Keeping it legal allows these women to have access to a safe abortion.
Less than half of unwanted pregnancies end in adoption, unfortunately. And the very troubling and sobering fact is that some children (notice I said some, meaning a small percentage) who are born “unwanted” suffer silently in homes for 18 years. The horror stories of neglect and abuse. Or some are never adopted and are shuffled through the painfully frequent uprooting associated with foster care.
Rather than focusing on abortion, I dearly wish and pray that we could shift our focus to the children currently being raised. We need to redefine the family. Marriage needs to be seen again as a lifelong commitment. Mothers need access to programs such as WIC to teach them about the nutritional needs of their infants.
Teenagers need comprehensive sexual education programs to help protect themselves from both STDs and pregnancy if they choose to be sexually active. By focusing on prevention, wouldn’t we be satisfying the desire of both camps to reduce the number of abortions?
President Obama has suggested that focusing on education of future parents and current parents to ensure the safety and health of our children could be the topic to bridge the gap between liberals and conservatives and to find a healthy compromise, rather than just arguing about who is right and who is wrong for another 10 years.
Just curious to know, for all of you that have stated that Obama’s views conflict with your own, what your opinion is on Obama’s push to focus primarily on pregnancy prevention strategies.
WOW! I have been gone most of the afternoon and evening and so I missed some of the later posts. I have now read them and WOW! that is alot of information. As much as I would love to respond to the logical falacies and the incorrect statements made I will have to wait until tomorrow to be able to adequately respond. Have a good evening and I look forward to continuing this post.
so, i love to discuss politics and coudn’t pass up this post. i so agree with many of your points……however, i struggle with reconciling politics, our “christian” nation, and christianity. you see, i read an amazing book called the myth of the christian nation. we as christians today like to blame political parties for leading us astray, but i wonder if that is true. we also do like to show up for picketing and signing petitions, but are we willing to daily live for Jesus? are we willing to love the sinners? are we willing to take in the lady facing abortion? are we willing to befriend the homosexual and walk through this life with them? you see, the Jesus i read about and believe in didn’t tell his disciples to change the current government (which ironically wasn’t much different than our current one) He told them to go into the world and change people’s lives. i have had my views radically changed and have needed to seek Jesus fully daily in light of what He is teaching me.
i appreciate all of what you said – and several of the comments ring true with me. let me leave you all with this question that was posed in the earlier mentioned book: when exactly were we a christian nation? was it when we took the land from the indians and moved them? or was it when we had slaves? or is it when we complain about the imigrants coming to america? those all really make me think – and challenge me to be sold out for Jesus and living boldy for Him!!
blessings marla – i so enjoy being a lurker on your sight!